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The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
11-30-2010, 08:50 PM
Post: #81
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
(11-29-2010 05:22 PM)theeternaliam Wrote:  
(11-29-2010 07:16 AM)Hexalpa+ Wrote:  
(11-29-2010 12:40 AM)theeternaliam Wrote:  ALL HOPE lies in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If He is not alive, then all is lost.

Then count me "Lost",
because I certainly do NOT believe
in the factuality of the bodily resurrection of Yeshua,
(as Peter would have it).
But I most certainly DO believe in what Jesus TAUGHT.

Hex+

If you believe what He taught, then you believe in the resurrection.
The resurrection is foundational to Jesus' teachings...


In the Gospel of Philip
you will find that you must attain the Resurrection in this life, or you will not attain it at all.
I do not believe that Yeshua meant "the same thing" when he spoke of Resurrection as most 21st Century Christians do.

If I thought that he (Yeshua) DID mean "the same thing" (bodily revivification of the dead),
then I would NOT believe what Jesus taught.


Note: Many words have been put on Jesus' lips since he died.
The Evangelist John is the worst offender in this regard, imho.
I don't really mind what he says...it's beautiful poetic imagery...
I just don't take "John" literally...I take him "Mystically".
11-30-2010, 09:20 PM
Post: #82
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
K, we're totally off topic. These posts need to be moved. NOt that they aren't great posts, but they are more about Jesus than the Fallacy of Gnostic Monism.... (can't figure out how to just move the posts dammit)
Anyhow, for what it's worth, the only things I believe that Jesus said are found in the Gospel of Thomas. As for the high christological sayings that are found in Gospel of Thomas, it is my opinion that they were added in later, as Gospel of John was making it's way round. Gospel of John seems VERY anti-Thomas.
K, now gotta figure out how to move these posts.

InTheWind
11-30-2010, 10:41 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2010 04:01 AM by theeternaliam.)
Post: #83
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
To be frank, I find those poor excuses for not accepting what Jesus Christ said. And the same thing with what Paul said, too. Often, people will accept only what they want to believe. Doctrine that doesn't coincide with how they want the Way to be like, they jut say are added in later or "that's not what He meant". You say, "many words have been put on Jesus' lips since He died" but it seems to me you mean you just can't accept that He is the Unique Manifestation of God, He is God and became a sacrifice to save us from having to make perpetual sacrifice and clear our karmic debt, which, is impossible to clear w/o His sacrifice because of Destiny(Heimarmene).
How do you propose we clear our Karmic debt? Purgation? I hope you don't pretend we aren't responsible for our sins.

Which sayings are added? Only the sayings which you can't agree with. And most likely yo don't agree with them because they don't fit into your world-view, your perception of how things are or ought to be. Have yu ever considered, perhaps your world-view/perception is flawed?

It is my opinion that pride keeps many from the humble acceptance that Jesus Christ is who He says He is in the New Testament.(and yes, "gnostic" scripture, too). Not just pride, though, there are many stumbling blocks. Forgive me if it sounds like I'm judging you. I admit that I have my stumbling blocks. I often compromise the Holy Spirit and am prone to refuse to accept truths which are hard to swallow, which I feel you may be doing when you ignore those bold statements made by Christ in the Gosp. of John.

You are correct, we must attain the resurrection in this life, be BORN AGAIN in Spirit, before we can expect to attain the resurrection after. But we WILL be resurrected after this worldly existence.

I agree that Jesus' sayings should be read mystically, but they are not LIMITED to mystic interpretation. He is no dummy. He knew what He said. It can't be read on only one level. Ironically, that is the same mistake fundamentalists make.


The One who's throne is in heaven sits laughing
psalms 2:4
12-01-2010, 12:57 AM
Post: #84
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
ahem.
Off topic.
Please TheEternaliam, you have some great points, maybe we can make a new thread for the discussion?
As for the later addition bits, I have read in a few places that this is the case. I read GoT every single day. I am a Thomasine Friar and it makes up the core of my contemplative studies. Read in this manner, it often feels as though certain sayings stand out a bit as not really blending in with the rest.
Anyhow... Fallacy of Gnostic Monism people!!!

InTheWind
12-14-2011, 04:22 PM
Post: #85
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
Good God there's some serious stuff going down here. Not exactly pleasant at times.

Way I see it, if Pleroma means "Fullness", that means it is, to some extent inclusive of the Kenoma or Material Realm. Since everything is ultimately made of the same material as the Pleroma is, albeit horribly disfigured. It's not that the Kenoma is separate from the Pleroma in essence, simply in actuality. It's not meant to be separate, but Yaldy-baldy has screwed with it until it became incompatible. Like, it started out as a round peg and a round hole, until somebody cut it into a square. It's not different in essence, but is still presently incompatible.

Starts of Monist, becomes mitigated dualism, then re-forges into Monism again at the end. But the fact that the two can be reconciled at all speaks to a Panentheist universe. If the two were incompatible, that wouldn't be possible. Panentheism doesn't deny dualism, in fact, I'd say that Panentheism is implicitly mitigated-dualistic, insofar it implies that god is in part totally beyond everything we know. The know/unknown dichotomy. Just my two cents.

I'll bet God is watching this debate and laughing about our semantic debates.
12-14-2011, 05:48 PM
Post: #86
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
(12-14-2011 04:22 PM)SonofSethoitae Wrote:  Good God there's some serious stuff going down here. Not exactly pleasant at times.

I'll bet God is watching this debate and laughing about our semantic debates.

Well I see you found the thread that almost destroyed the entire forum Wink Such a small thing to get worked up about if you ask me...

But I think you're right, God would laugh at this. I'm pretty sure he cares a lot less about these kind of things than we do.

Hell is repetition...
12-15-2011, 12:54 AM
Post: #87
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
But hey, if Hex, Jordan, and BlockHead can all come to some kind of agreement (or at least not kill each other), I think that speaks very well for us as a species Big Grin

Yeah, kind of small indeed. Like has been said many times, write your own myth. If Dualism worked for you, great. If you prefer Panentheism, fantastic. If you're stumbling somewhere in between like me, that's cool too. It didn't seem to bother the ancients calling themselves Gnostikoi, why should it bring us down now. The whole point is gnosis anyway. What does it matter what package it comes in?

And speaking of packages for gnosis, Shilo's views intrigue me. They're very different from others that I've seen, though kinda similar to my own a few years back. Very unique take on stuff Shilo, I like it Big Grin
12-15-2011, 11:39 PM
Post: #88
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
Smile
Wow this was a fun thread, LOL.
I myself am a Panentheist. It is the background music to everything I take in. It colours it. It wasn't a conscious decision... it just sort of happened after a spiritual experience occurred.
Oh gosh, and now I have to go reading through this to find out what my 'take' was in it, hah.

InTheWind
12-16-2011, 12:45 AM
Post: #89
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
(12-15-2011 12:54 AM)SonofSethoitae Wrote:  But hey, if Hex, Jordan, and BlockHead can all come to some kind of agreement (or at least not kill each other), I think that speaks very well for us as a species Big Grin

was some sort of consensus reached? lol my eyes crossed after 5 or 6 pages... and tbh i hope i never have to return to the subject

Hell is repetition...
03-06-2014, 12:35 AM
Post: #90
RE: The Fallacy of Gnostic Monism ...
Haha, I had to revisit this. Truly there was so much information. It's amazing how vehemently we held our opinions and ideas and now it's so quiet.
Reading through threads like this reminds me of how real, vital and excellent this all was.
And now, I barely remember what all these terms mean.
anyhow...

InTheWind


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